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Thursday, March 25, 2010

Things to Reconsider before Frumming Out

I was asked by someone to compile a list of things one might want to contemplate before becoming orthodox. Here is my shortlist:

  1. The loss of freedom. Once you are frum, you have to get married (no sex allowed before marriage), God dictates what you are allowed to believe, think and do, you lose your identity (changing your name, wasting your talents), the Rabbis decide on important and unimportant matters.
  2. The role of the woman. Women are second degree citizens: they are not allowed to testify or to become a judge, their singing is considered 'nudity', what a woman owns belongs to her husband, only sons can inherit from their parents, man can have multiple women but not the other way around, etc. (More here.)
  3. Non-Jews. ‘Goyim’ are to be despised: the only reason why you should save them on Shabbat is because otherwise it might desecrate the name of God. And non-Jews don't have a neshama (Godly soul). (More here.)
  4. Apostates. People who rebel against orthodoxy can't be judges or bear testimony, going to secular courts is a sin, he should be buried only on the side of the graveyard, no kaddish is said for them. (More here.)
  5. Science. Jews have to believe that mankind was only created less than 6000 years ago and that the Torah was written by God, directly contradicting science that claims that modern humans are between 40'000-50'000 years old (see here) and that the Torah is a collection of edited human manuscripts (see here).
  6. Homosexuality. Homosexuality is an 'abomination' in the eyes of God, despite the fact that "The current literature and most scholars in the field agree that an individual's sexual orientation is not a matter of choice".
  7. BTs. Even after people become orthodox ('baalei teshuvah’ or BTs), they often  have problems finding a right shidduch (date) since they come from a non-frum background and will almost without exception will continue to be treated as 2nd class co-religionists.

Have you got something to add? Let me know in the comments.

17 comments:

  1. 8) Always keep one foot out
    Don't give them tools to force you to do what they want. In general, the best way of keeping autonomy is to keep economic indepence from the system. As long as you are not dependent economically they cannot do you too much harm. If you are, they might play you quite nasty tricks when they want to force you to do what they want.

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  2. 9) Newness eventually wears off.

    When encountering a new culture, you might be fascinated by some aspects. Like a new lover, you might discard the negative aspects. Novelty eventually wears out and is replaced by routing, where you might meet the less lovable aspects of the culture (see above, 1-7)

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  3. 2 is arguable. The left end of MO doesn't have those issues as much although the still exist.

    3 is also arguable. The point about souls is particularly not standard if you are chassidic. Sure, the Tanya says that. But that's disgusting and has no bearing on normative halacha or theology.

    4. Mostly correct. Going to secular courts is not inherently sinful. Again, look at MO attitudes about these issues. On the other hand, if one defrums one can be more or less shunned. Even if one is a BT, if one is a BT for many years and develops a family this can lock one in. Defrumming can result in the loss of basic social connections and cause many problems. Even the MO world is very hard to leave once one has been in for a while.

    5. Many MOs are completely accepting of science (although certainly a disturbingly large fraction, possibly a majority are not) . Even a small fraction of charedim. And among the MOs, even those who believe in a young earth and all that don't generally think that the people who believe otherwise are apikorsim/kofrim/whatever. However, that's less true in the right-wing of MO and the ultras.

    6. Very true. And isn't going to change.

    7. Again, much more true in the more ultra-orthodox. Much less true among the MO. True in the right-wing of MO.

    Frankly, you don't list the most serious concern: Why should you believe that the system is based on any form of truth at all? If it isn't, why live for a lie?

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  4. Some of the things you list are only true of the right, though some are definitely true of Orthodoxy as a whole. As Joshua said, though, isn’t the question of truth important? You seem to be treating this as if it’s comparable to choosing a neighborhood in which to live. Here are some good things about the neighborhood, here are some bad, do we want to live there? One should choose their worldview based on whether it’s objectively true, not based on a list of pros and cons.

    On the other hand, if someone is looking to merely adopt an Orthodox lifestyle, a list like this could be helpful.

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  5. "One should choose their worldview based on whether it’s objectively true, not based on a list of pros and cons."

    I agree with you that you should avoid worldviews or ideological systems that deny you access to what is objectively true.

    I believe every person should have a possibility to leatn what is objectively true, what is certain, what is undertain and should also have a possibility to express what is objectively true.

    However, I do not share your opinion that everyone should build his worldview on what is objectively true.
    Illusion can be very comforting.

    Furthermore, you are mistaken if you believe that only religious fundamentalists deny what is "objectively true". Any system tends to deny "objective truth" that disturbs. It's a kind of self-preserving instinct of the system, and it can be found anywhere.

    That's why torture is not taking place where the population who democratically elected the governement that ordered torture can see it, to name but one example.

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  6. I forgot one more major point: kosher. If you are not religious and your family isn't, this is going to be one hellish adventure. Your family may want to eat at your place, but you will not be allowed to eat from their food / dishes.

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  7. G*3, you can go thru your whole life and never learn what is objectively true...there is some point where one needs to take a leap of faith.

    I would add one: the discouraging of learning secular studies for their own sake. This also ties into the underlying pressure to not even consider alternative beliefs. banning books, not allowed to study other religions, etc. Chazal often say that one should not even think about what happened before teh world was created and other such things.

    lurker

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  8. Things to think about before going OTD:

    > The loss of freedom. Once you are OTD, you have to loss of moral guidance and invent one of your own that must meet the approval of others if you want to be part of any social crowd. You don't have to get married but you'll figure out when you're old and alone that all those nights of casual sex didn't get you anything. Political correctness dictates what you are allowed to believe, think and do, you lose your identity and have it replaced by your social insurance number.

    The role of the woman. Women are sexual objects to be gawked at and exploited, plastered mostly nude and anorexic all over the covers of magazines and treated only as well as their physical appearance.

    Apostates. People who rebel against political correctness can't be trusted or spoken to except in insulting tones.

    Science. Too late you will discover that sciene is an amoral subject that deals with facts and physical phenomena while scientism is a god-free religion just as closed-minded as the religion you left.

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  9. Garnel, it is remarks like the above why many people find you annoying. The topic of UK's post had nothing to do with your remark. So you instead decided to change the subject to a marginally similar issue so you could repeat tired nonsense. It is also interesting in that Kofer's remarks and most of the remarks above are by people who either are frum or were frum. So they have actual experience with what they are talking about. Since you aren't OTD you have no similar experience that corresponds to your claims above.

    Let's examine briefly your various claims: Regarding loss of moral guidance: If loss of moral guidance means not having the same moral system you had when you were frum sure. But unless you've got some deity saying that casual sex is wrong, there really isn't anything wrong with it. Also I don't know where all this claimed casual sex is happening but you apparently have a very interesting view of the OTD world that vastly overestimates how much sexual intercourse there is. Most OTDers and most people who aren't frum have long-term sexual partners, often marriages. That's for a variety of reasons including cultural ones but also because humans bond with each other over the long term. So this reason is just nonsense.

    Regarding the role of women: Yes, there's quite a bit of objectification in the general media and that's not good. But the vast majority of people don't care about that. Most human males don't automatically objectify every woman they encounter. Moreover, the automatic labeling of everything about females as so inherently sexual that everything has to be covered is about as sexualizing and objectifying as anything you'll find in the general media.

    Apostates- I don't even know what this section is supposed to mean. What do you mean by political correctness? From the general term, I'd think that this would mean something about politics. But there are OTD people who are all over the political spectrum. This is an utterly incoherent claim. If you can actually explain what you mean we might be able to discuss it. But I can't even evaluate its truth value given the current form.

    Science- of course science is amoral! Do you object plumbing because it is amoral? The scientism claim is both ridiculous and irrelevant: I've met exactly one person ever in my entire life who maybe met the standard "scientism" caricature as made by some frum yids or extremist Christians. He was 14 years old. So, yeah all those deep believers scientism. That's really what the general non-frum population believes. Right. Never mind that one can go OTD easily while still believing in God.

    Ok. I don't think anything you wrote above did anything other than damage the signal to noise ratio.

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  10. Children: If your children do not choose the life you chose, you will be required to reject your children. You will have a difficult relationship with your child, if any. You will have little or nothing in common with your grandchildren, if you have any contact with them at all. The trauma your children may experience from your attempts to force them to live your lifestyle and from your subsequent rejection of them may cause serious and long-term harm to your child's well-being. By becoming Orthodox, you are denying your children unconditional love.

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  11. Money: You will not be free to decide how to spend your money. You will be expected to spend at least 50% more on meat than you would otherwise, and vegetarianism is not a culturally sanctioned option. You will not be free to use public schools if the cost of private education is too high. You will not be free to advance your career as you otherwise would. You will spend hundreds or thousands of dollars purchasing such arcana as hand-made shmura matzah and extra-pretty citrons. Your ability to make a living may become dependent on the goodwill of the community. You will have limited protections of the courts, because if you use a state or federal court in resolving a civil matter against a member of the community, you may be ostracized. You will be forced to seek your "justice" in a religious court, in which the rules of evidence will consist mostly of determining which classes of people, like oh, women, are not reliable enough to serve as witnesses. Although a judgment may be enforceable in state or federal court, you will, of course, not seek enforcement of an unpaid judgment for the foregoing reasons. Good luck building a livelihood.

    Oh, and should you attempt to build a livelihood, you will be considered less worthy than the people who don't work, but instead expect you to support them.

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  12. Intimacy: You may not be able to touch your spouse when he or she is suffering and in pain. You will not be able to hug your spouse after his or her mother dies. You will not be able to kiss your wife after she births your child.

    If you wish to have children (and you will be required to wish to have children), you may need to use artificial hormone injections to induce ovulation at a legally convenient times. As it turns out, some women ovulate at a time in their cycle when the rabbis have decided they are "impure."

    You will not be permitted to have sex when you are physically or emotionally inclined to do so. You will have sex at times determined by the rabbis, with the precise details sorted out by your rabbi. If you are a woman, your "purity" will become a matter of grave concern, and it will require to engage in such humiliations as sharing your underwear with your rabbi and stripping naked monthly in front of a woman in the community. You will be required to find this "beautiful" and "holy."

    Finding this humiliating will not be permitted.

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  13. > Furthermore, you are mistaken if you believe that only religious fundamentalists deny what is "objectively true". Any system tends to deny "objective truth" that disturbs. It's a kind of self-preserving instinct of the system, and it can be found anywhere.
    > G*3, you can go thru your whole life and never learn what is objectively true...there is some point where one needs to take a leap of faith.

    I agree, it is nearly impossible to be sure of what is true. But that’s beside the point. We should at least try to base our lives on what we believe to be true, not decide what we are allowed to believe based on what’s comforting or convenient.

    I find it strange that so many people regard religious observance as a choice to be made based on what they ha[[en to like. If Judaism is correct, we MUST keep the mitzvos. If it’s not, then we don’t. The question then is whether or not Judaism is correct, a question to which a list of the inconveniences of being religious is irrelevant.

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  14. "The question then is whether or not Judaism is correct, a question to which a list of the inconveniences of being religious is irrelevant."

    Of course, that particular question was not raised by this post, or addressed in any way. But thank you for attempting to distract from the discussion by stating its irrelevance to an irrelevant question.

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  15. > thank you for attempting to distract from the discussion by stating its irrelevance to an irrelevant question.

    Congratulations, you’ve uncovered my nefarious plot to sidetrack the thread!

    Conversations can develop in their own direction, no?

    Anyway, the very first sentence of the post reads: “I was asked by someone to compile a list of things one might want to contemplate before becoming orthodox.” My contention is that the only relevant thing to contemplate before deciding whether or not to become Orthodox is the truth of Orthodoxy’s tenets.

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  16. Absolutely, a person can use misdirection and distraction to change the topic of a discussion.

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  17. Ultimately, you have to make the choice as to whether or not you stand to gain or lose from leaving or joining OJ.

    I stand to lose too much to leave. Its worth the minor inconvenience of halacha.

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