"Thinking independently?! A yid doesn't think independently, we have a Mesorah for that, we have our Rebbeim for that."Case closed, all of ye kiruv clowns!
Monday, May 7, 2012
Can You Argue With That?
Quote from a comment on my 'real' Facebook page, by a Rabbi in Lakewood that I know (don't ask me how he got on to Facebook):
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Quote from a comment on my blog, by an atheist:
ReplyDelete"Thinking independently?! An atheist doesn't think independently, we have science for that, we have our professors for that."
Case closed, all of ye kefirah clowns!
My God. If someone in the blogosphere wrote that as a parody, I would think of it as exaggeration.
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly the argument atheists constantly make on my blog.
ReplyDelete"What, you don't believe in evolution? You question scientists?!!"
JP: Except that your quote is not a real quote but mine is.
ReplyDeleteFace it: 'thinking independently' is something that the yeshivah world in general believes is a bad thing, whereas mainstream atheists will agree that thinking independently as an important value.
Your warped reasoning gives me the creeps. It reminds me of my yeshivah days.
Baloney. This is exactly the argument all atheists use when finally backed into a corner.
ReplyDeleteJust fantasizing about things doesn't make it true, JP.
DeleteLike the fantasy that atheism is a religion and that all kofrim are atheists. Sweet dreams!
DeleteAppeal to authority is always the last resort, killer argument of atheists.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.evolutionnews.org/2005/10/top_news_more_unrest_in_the_middle_east_001089.html
UK , have you noticed how much your volume of comments has dropped since you let that troll effectively control the flow of debate? Just something to think about.
ReplyDeleteHi SY, not sure it is JP, more likely Facebook since people comment on my links to the post on Facebook.
DeleteThe atheist bloggers dictionary.
ReplyDeleteCommentator who doesn't agree with me and who I can't refute - troll.
All other commentators - good commentators.
Read this crap:
ReplyDeleteNEW MEMBERS, PLEASE READ THESE RULES BEFORE JOINING:
1. No Kiruv!
4. This group is open to all of those who are off the derech in some way, from the skeptical orthoprax to the secular atheist.
5. Telling people they are wrong according to judaism, preaching orthodox views, etc., is not welcome by off the derech members.
http://www.facebook.com/groups/offthederech/
No different opinions allowed. We don't want our beliefs questioned.How is that different than the most orthodox Frum website?
And I'll bet every single member would claim they know atheism is true because scientists say so. Sound familiar? "Thinking independently?! A yid doesn't think independently"
JP: Notice the following points:
Delete- Orthodox Judaism wants no thinking on your own. It seems you wish to divert attention from that. Do you agree with this philosophy? You mentioned you were yeshivish. If so, why are you still on the Internet when Mattisyahu Solomon forbids it? Did you get a heiter?
- A Facebook group is like a club of any sorts. They have their rules. The OJ philosophy of not allowing thinking out of the proverbial box is not just a club, this is an all-pervasive philosophy.
I thought you were intelligent enough to spot the difference.
In any case, you will be surprised to know that many of our 450 members consider themselves religious, agnostic or deist / theist and we cover the spectrum from some kind of orthodoxy up to militant atheists. So far, we managed well.
But, of course, you think so black & white that you only know OJ or atheist. Are you perhaps suffering of a cognitive distortion called Splitting?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)
If you were really skeptics, searching for the truth wherever it may be, there would be no boundries to comments, no ideas off limits, would there?
DeleteI allow all opinions on my blog. I moderate comments only because of: actual spam advertisements, personal insults which have no philosophical content or people who have already made the same point literally about five times and are still repeating it again.
It's the so called skeptics who are afraid of debate. I'll bet every single one of those 450 Facebook members would not want to discuss there beliefs with me and most would insist that they just trust the scientists and therefore don't need to think about it.
Did you read my previous comment???
DeleteYou think it's OK to be close minded since you imagine everyone else is.
DeleteIf you don't care to my previous comments, I don't feel obligated to read yours either.
Delete"Orthodox Judaism wants no thinking on your own. It seems you wish to divert attention from that. Do you agree with this philosophy?"
ReplyDeleteWho is "Orthodox Judaism"? Not me apparently.
"You mentioned you were yeshivish. If so, why are you still on the Internet when Mattisyahu Solomon forbids it?"
Where did I mention that? And when Mattisyahu Solomon forbid it? And who said his opinion is binding on everyone who is yeshivish?
You're just babbling some nonsense because you want to deny how close minded and dogmatic all the great "Jewish skeptics" are. You want to have the freedom to indulge in your hookers and porn, reassure yourselves that scientists say it's OK, and not hear any inconvenient facts to the contrary.
OJ is all about being mevatel your thoughts to the Torah and the gedolim. There is even an issur to think Avodah Zarah thoughts.
DeleteSolomon organized the asifah and has assered it in our community as well: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2012/05/rav-matisyahu-salomon-speaks.html
I will not reply to your stupendous other ASSumptions.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteJP: Feel free to rephrase.
ReplyDelete(hint: Rambam and Yehuda Halevi would be considered LWMO nowadays.)
The truth hurts doesn't it. So go ahead and delete it.
DeleteRight, the Rambam who decreed that heretics be put to death without trial was LWMO. Maybe he was a Communist also. LOL.
There's a difference in truth and abuse, just like you delete abusive posts.
DeleteYou are right about the Rambam, just saying that certain things he said would definitely nowadays not be considered mainstream.
Many rabbis, old and new, have studied anti-Torah philosophies and refuted them and so do I.
DeleteAs far as being close minded goes, witness the horror of secularists when a school board placed stickers inside the front cover of biology textbooks that said, “This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selman_v._Cobb_County_School_District
Secularists immediately sued, successfully, to remove them for fear that such stickers might corrupt precious young minds with false beliefs. How is that different than any ultra-orthodox yeshiva?
"Many rabbis, old and new, have studied anti-Torah philosophies and refuted them and so do I."
ReplyDelete-> Argument from authority.
I can understand their horror since the concept of 'theory' was gravely misunderstood. From Wikipedia:
"In scientific usage, the term "theory" is reserved for explanations of phenomena which meet basic requirements about the kinds of empirical observations made, the methods of classification used, and the consistency of the theory in its application among members of the class to which it pertains."
and:
"Theories are intended to be an accurate, predictive description of the natural world.
[edit]".
Zil gmor.
"Argument from authority."
ReplyDeleteI'm just saying that your concept that "Jews aren't allowed to think" seems to be innaccurate. On the contrary, atheists don't want anyone to think; just believe evolution, drink the Kool Aid because scientists say so.
True, "Jews aren't allowed to think" should be changed to "Haredi Jews aren't allowed to think".
DeleteAre you haredi?
Which is also a lie. I'm thinking.
ReplyDeleteAtheists aren't allowed to think. Even to tell children that evolution should be "critically considered" is illegal.
I know you are thinking, I am talking about independent thinking.
ReplyDeleteDead fish flow along with the current. That's merely what "Jewish skeptics" are doing.
ReplyDelete