Strong stuff and I agree with a lot of what he says. However:
First, an obvious error - a kohain IS allowed to marry a widow.
And what is this about Abraham killing his son?? Regardless of some midrashic accounts that he actually went through with it, the vast majority of commentators - not to mention pshat - is that he DIDN'T kill Isaac and the whole point of the story is that this is a story that shows God does NOT want human sacrifice, a much more elevated ethical idea of the times.
Most importantly, I believe that his discussion about Judaism permitting pedophilia is WAY off the mark and is something that is more appropriate on a Jew-hatred site. The Talmud discussion that he refers to doesn't imply permissibility, rather the financial consequences of such an act in terms of virginity for a marriage contract. I challenge him to show historical evidence that Judaism tolerated pedophilia, as opposed to - say - Greek or Muslim society. Yadan is not being intellectually honest here.
There is much more that he could have elaborated on without resorting to this bugaboo. E.g., the Torah penalties for raping a non-virgin (none, I believe), the permissibility of marrying off a Jewish servant to a non-Jewish slave and producing offspring that will be perpetual slaves, how the nature of non-Jews has permeated classic texts (Tanya, Derech Hashem), etc.
In his disdain for Judaism, Yadan ignores all positive aspects and presents a completely lopsided picture. That religious fundies do the same is not an excuse.
Most importantly, I believe that his discussion about Judaism permitting pedophilia is WAY off the mark and is something that is more appropriate on a Jew-hatred site.
Not so fast. Here are the words of an advocate for victims of child molestation who appeared on the Zev Brenner program last night:
"Gluck also told a story of a haredi rabbi who told a victim's family that because there was no penetration, there was no abuse and police should not be called."
"Gluck also told a story of a haredi rabbi who told a victim's family that because there was no penetration, there was no abuse and police should not be called."
I really don't care what some whacked-out haredi rabbi says. The question is what would the classical halachic texts say about such a matter? I suspect they would support lashes.
What I object to is the implication that the halachic tradition permits pedophilia. If you believe otherwise, please give me sources from major authorities. And using an out of context quote from the Talmud doesn't count...
Does anyone know who this Yadan character actual is? I know he is supposed a "former rosh yeshiva". Which yeshiva? When? Where? Did he go to college? What's his whole bio?
This yadan needs help......he is so messed up in his mind....he knows so lttle about yahadut.....he never realy did ''Teshuva'' as he says...he started at a yeshiva called ''Ohr Sameach'' in jerusalem...but only from the out side he keeped Yahadut...inside his was sick with ''bad midot'' way far from Hashem and true pure judaisem.....anyone can go over and ask about him....the guy left a wife with 7 children.....he is running away from himself......
Your right.....this yadan is a sick guy in his head...he has 7 children that he left with out a father to take care of them and to love them.....the guy needs help....stay far from him.... the truth is he never was frum.....it was just a show he put on....then he ran away.....
Actually, JP might actually have a point here (even a broken clock is right twice a day). As a proud kofer, I think knowing his background adds credibility to his words. Sure, I may not agree with everything he says or he may exaggerate as a previous commenter noted. Yet, in the end of the day, if you know he is coming from a place with a solid torah background and then went on this path, it is a lot stronger than a yeshiva guy who chooses the same path.
I don't think that Yadan's background makes anything he says more or less valid, however I think it's pretty obvious he's hiding something and/or fabricating something. I just wonder what.
Ksil, you didn't read carefully. The atheists are Woody Allen, being chopped and sliced up by my razor sharp logic Iike eggs and onions on your mother's kitchen counter.
Somebody has been growing 12 populations of bacteria for over twenty years and ended up with one significant de novo genetic mutation.
For bacteria, 22 years equals 50,000 generations. I don't know how large these twelve populations are, however let's guess that each one is in a liter of water. One milliliter of water will contain about 100 million e. coli
http://www.disknet.com/indiana_biolab/b038.htm
Twelve liter would therefore be about 1.2 trillion. 50,000 generations would be 6 x 10^16 bacteria total. Out of that astronomical number, one had a good mutation.
It's estimated that about 106 billion humans have ever lived.
How many millions or billions of years would it take for one single good mutation to appear somewhere in all of mankind? And from there, how long would it take to develop a single, new useful limb or organ? Would our solar system exist that long?
That's an entirely flawed experiment that has been repeatedly debunked. But there's no point to ever debate with you. You will simply repeat the same statements incessantly as if somehow the repetition makes them true.
Stein,the appellation "Jewish Philosopher" included such great minds as Saadia Gaon, Shlomi ibn Gavirol, Rambam, Yehuda haLevi, Abravanel,Hermann Cohen, Joseph Soloveitchik. You are not a Jewish philosopher. You do not belong in such company. You belittle their accomplishments by implying you are entitled to be considered a philosopher.
Yaron Yadan, is an absolutist disconnected from any ability to relate to the world of real people. Whereas before he wanted everyone to be Orthodox now everyone must subscribe to his peculiar philosophy concerning reality. He will smear Judaism to accomplish the goal of all to think like him, projecting modern day racism unto Judaism. An explanation for a posuk's reference he turns into the charge that the Talmud considers Gentiles not human. The problem for that Antisemite's view is that they are considered human and given commandments and can even convert. He accepts old time Antisemitic nonsense like from a Russian official for example or trying to describe the Rabbis of the Talmud as stupid because they talked of extreme cases of law. Yaron Yadan is failing to understand that law is determined by case law and defining extreme cases so as to arrive at a better understanding. He has little to no sense of how science works or religion and denounces Israel as oppressing the Palestininans and thinks its because of religion, all because he wants Israel as a NonJewish state in the sense of just being a state of all its citezens. If not for the fact that people are ignorant of the Talmud and Antisemites and racists and their organizations find his work helpful with no denouncement from him, he would be ignored. Haters like him are usually mediocre thinkers and he is no exception.
heres a quote which shows JP to be badly mistaken regarding the e coli exp.
"Lenski's team periodically froze bacteria for later study, and technology has since developed to allow complete genetic sequencing. By the 20,000-generation midpoint, researchers discovered 45 mutations among surviving cells. Those mutations, according to Darwin's theory, should have conferred some advantage, and that's exactly what the researchers found.
The results "beautifully emphasize the succession of mutational events that allowed these organisms to climb toward higher and higher efficiency in their environment," noted Dominique Schneider, a molecular geneticist at the Université Joseph Fourier in Grenoble, France."
also, if JP thinks he can make quick work of an atheist in a debate, he must be referring to a pretty stupid one. any atheist of normal intelligence could make mince meat of him.
Strong stuff and I agree with a lot of what he says. However:
ReplyDeleteFirst, an obvious error - a kohain IS allowed to marry a widow.
And what is this about Abraham killing his son?? Regardless of some midrashic accounts that he actually went through with it, the vast majority of commentators - not to mention pshat - is that he DIDN'T kill Isaac and the whole point of the story is that this is a story that shows God does NOT want human sacrifice, a much more elevated ethical idea of the times.
Most importantly, I believe that his discussion about Judaism permitting pedophilia is WAY off the mark and is something that is more appropriate on a Jew-hatred site. The Talmud discussion that he refers to doesn't imply permissibility, rather the financial consequences of such an act in terms of virginity for a marriage contract. I challenge him to show historical evidence that Judaism tolerated pedophilia, as opposed to - say - Greek or Muslim society. Yadan is not being intellectually honest here.
There is much more that he could have elaborated on without resorting to this bugaboo. E.g., the Torah penalties for raping a non-virgin (none, I believe), the permissibility of marrying off a Jewish servant to a non-Jewish slave and producing offspring that will be perpetual slaves, how the nature of non-Jews has permeated classic texts (Tanya, Derech Hashem), etc.
In his disdain for Judaism, Yadan ignores all positive aspects and presents a completely lopsided picture. That religious fundies do the same is not an excuse.
The Talmud is very clear that sexual acts with a minor below certain ages has no consequence.
ReplyDeleteRight in the beginning, when he discusses entering the land and killing all none believers, is he talking about Jews or Caananites?
ReplyDeleteMost importantly, I believe that his discussion about Judaism permitting pedophilia is WAY off the mark and is something that is more appropriate on a Jew-hatred site.
ReplyDeleteNot so fast. Here are the words of an advocate for victims of child molestation who appeared on the Zev Brenner program last night:
"Gluck also told a story of a haredi rabbi who told a victim's family that because there was no penetration, there was no abuse and police should not be called."
How strange is it that "we" secular society accept gay sex as OK, but pedophelia is illegal.
ReplyDeleteThe torah is the opposite!
Mind boggling
Ksil
Pedophilia is a moder term.
ReplyDeleteMy wife's grandmother got married at age 13 in Iran. It was acceptable. Were they a bunch of pedophiles? (from a objective POV)
"Gluck also told a story of a haredi rabbi who told a victim's family that because there was no penetration, there was no abuse and police should not be called."
ReplyDeleteI really don't care what some whacked-out haredi rabbi says. The question is what would the classical halachic texts say about such a matter? I suspect they would support lashes.
What I object to is the implication that the halachic tradition permits pedophilia. If you believe otherwise, please give me sources from major authorities. And using an out of context quote from the Talmud doesn't count...
HH, i guess you missed my point, oh well.
ReplyDeleteKsil
Does anyone know who this Yadan character actual is? I know he is supposed a "former rosh yeshiva". Which yeshiva? When? Where? Did he go to college? What's his whole bio?
ReplyDeleteThis yadan needs help......he is so messed up in his mind....he knows so lttle about yahadut.....he never realy did ''Teshuva'' as he says...he started at a yeshiva called ''Ohr Sameach'' in jerusalem...but only from the out side he keeped Yahadut...inside his was sick with ''bad midot'' way far from Hashem and true pure judaisem.....anyone can go over and ask about him....the guy left a wife with 7 children.....he is running away from himself......
DeleteYea! Whats his bio so we can do some ad hmonem! Also, jp never met anyone that grew up frum, that broke free from the chains
ReplyDeleteLol
Ksil
Your right.....this yadan is a sick guy in his head...he has 7 children that he left with out a father to take care of them and to love them.....the guy needs help....stay far from him....
Deletethe truth is he never was frum.....it was just a show he put on....then he ran away.....
Actually, JP might actually have a point here (even a broken clock is right twice a day). As a proud kofer, I think knowing his background adds credibility to his words. Sure, I may not agree with everything he says or he may exaggerate as a previous commenter noted. Yet, in the end of the day, if you know he is coming from a place with a solid torah background and then went on this path, it is a lot stronger than a yeshiva guy who chooses the same path.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Yadan's background makes anything he says more or less valid, however I think it's pretty obvious he's hiding something and/or fabricating something. I just wonder what.
ReplyDeleteAlso, here is a refutation of some of his stuff
http://www.thesanhedrin.org/en/index.php?title=Response_to_Daat_Emet_publications
Your right....this yadan was never frum....it was a run away show.....
Deletestay away from him and let others know too.
Anonymous: How can you claim he was never frum? Troll.
Delete"here is a refutation of some of his stuff"
ReplyDeleterefutation?!?! HAHAHAHAHAHA
ksil
Total smack down.
ReplyDeleteI personally feel sorry for atheists whom I debate. Me debating an atheist is like Hulk Hogan wrestling Woody Allen.
dont call yourself woody allen! you at least try. granted, you look silly....and loose, but still
ReplyDeleteksil
Ksil, you didn't read carefully. The atheists are Woody Allen, being chopped and sliced up by my razor sharp logic
ReplyDeleteIike eggs and onions on your mother's kitchen counter.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney
ReplyDeleteThe futility of debate...
If you want to check out some science, check this out: the E. coli long-term evolution experiment
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment
Somebody has been growing 12 populations of bacteria for over twenty years and ended up with one significant de novo genetic mutation.
For bacteria, 22 years equals 50,000 generations. I don't know how large these twelve populations are, however let's guess that each one is in a liter of water. One milliliter of water will contain about 100 million e. coli
http://www.disknet.com/indiana_biolab/b038.htm
Twelve liter would therefore be about 1.2 trillion. 50,000 generations would be 6 x 10^16 bacteria total. Out of that astronomical number, one had a good mutation.
It's estimated that about 106 billion humans have ever lived.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population#Number_of_humans_who_have_ever_lived
How many millions or billions of years would it take for one single good mutation to appear somewhere in all of mankind? And from there, how long would it take to develop a single, new useful limb or organ? Would our solar system exist that long?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Solar_Life_Cycle.svg
That's an entirely flawed experiment that has been repeatedly debunked. But there's no point to ever debate with you. You will simply repeat the same statements incessantly as if somehow the repetition makes them true.
ReplyDeleteStein,the appellation "Jewish Philosopher" included such great minds as Saadia Gaon, Shlomi ibn Gavirol, Rambam, Yehuda haLevi, Abravanel,Hermann Cohen, Joseph Soloveitchik. You are not a Jewish philosopher. You do not belong in such company. You belittle their accomplishments by implying you are entitled to be considered a philosopher.
You just made that up.
ReplyDeleteYaron Yadan, is an absolutist disconnected from any ability to relate to the world of real people. Whereas before he wanted everyone to be Orthodox now everyone must subscribe to his peculiar philosophy concerning reality. He will smear Judaism to accomplish the goal of all to think like him, projecting modern day racism unto Judaism. An explanation for a posuk's reference he turns into the charge that the Talmud considers Gentiles not human. The problem for that Antisemite's view is that they are considered human and given commandments and can even convert. He accepts old time Antisemitic nonsense like from a Russian official for example or trying to describe the Rabbis of the Talmud as stupid because they talked of extreme cases of law. Yaron Yadan is failing to understand that law is determined by case law and defining extreme cases so as to arrive at a better understanding. He has little to no sense of how science works or religion and denounces Israel as oppressing the Palestininans and thinks its because of religion, all because he wants Israel as a NonJewish state in the sense of just being a state of all its citezens. If not for the fact that people are ignorant of the Talmud and Antisemites and racists and their organizations find his work helpful with no denouncement from him, he would be ignored. Haters like him are usually mediocre thinkers and he is no exception.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know who this character really is?
ReplyDeleteJust by the way, there is an interesting movie about an orthodox Jew who becomes a neo-Nazi.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Believer_(film)
It's not far from reality.
heres a quote which shows JP to be badly mistaken regarding the e coli exp.
ReplyDelete"Lenski's team periodically froze bacteria for later study, and technology has since developed to allow complete genetic sequencing. By the 20,000-generation midpoint, researchers discovered 45 mutations among surviving cells. Those mutations, according to Darwin's theory, should have conferred some advantage, and that's exactly what the researchers found.
The results "beautifully emphasize the succession of mutational events that allowed these organisms to climb toward higher and higher efficiency in their environment," noted Dominique Schneider, a molecular geneticist at the Université Joseph Fourier in Grenoble, France."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091018141716.htm
Apparently only one mutation significantly increased fertility - in other words, was naturally selected.
ReplyDeletealso, if JP thinks he can make quick work of an atheist in a debate, he must be referring to a pretty stupid one. any atheist of normal intelligence could make mince meat of him.
ReplyDelete