כי לא מחשבותי מחשבותיכם

כִּי לֹא מַחְשְׁבוֹתַי מַחְשְׁבוֹתֵיכֶם, וְלֹא דַרְכֵיכֶם דְּרָכָי

Tuesday, November 29, 2011

Can't Subject Religion to Science?

I often heard people say that you can't bring any contradictions between science and religion as a proof that Judaism is not true, because they are simply not acting in the same realm: science describes the how, whereas religion explains the why.

This way, many people think to rationalize their irrational beliefs. Also, it makes their religion sound super sophisticated: "science 'only' explains the 'how', but religion knows the 'why'!"

Of course, the claim that "we can't bring any contradictions between science and religion" just shows how scared people really are to subject their beliefs to proper investigation.

But it turns out that...their claim is simply untrue. Judaism does indeed occupy itself with a whole lot of 'hows'. Some examples where the Torah tries to explain the 'how':
  • How the world was created (not why)
  • How man was created (not why)
  • How the Mishkan was built (not why)
  • How the Jewish people were redeemed from slavery in all its details (the why not being the focus of the story)
  • How the Jews traveled through the desert, where they stopped, etc. (the why not being the focus of the story)
  • How the Torah was given in all its boring details (not why)
  • How sacrifices are to be brought in all its boring details (not why)
  • Etc., etc.
So, my dear fellow Jews, before you claim again that your religion is above all criticism, to phrase it in jargon: hafoch bah vehafoch bah ki kulah bah: delve into it and see it is all there...

Kudos to Daat Emet for bringing this up in their Q&A.
Posted by Undercover Kofer at Tuesday, November 29, 2011

34 comments:

  1. zachNovember 29, 2011 at 5:02 PM

    You forgot what some would argue to be the biggest how: how all life on earth derives from the survivors of Noah's ark only 4500 years ago.

    ReplyDelete
  2. jewish philosopherNovember 29, 2011 at 5:27 PM

    Can you subject atheism to science?

    ReplyDelete
  3. jewish philosopherNovember 29, 2011 at 5:30 PM

    Thank God, I've easily resolved the alleged contradictions between Torah and science:

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-i-understand-genesis.html

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/10/biblical-deluge.html

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/02/torah-and-archaeology.html

    Now what about the contradictions between science and atheism:

    If God did not create the universe, then why is it fine tuned to support life?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe

    If there is no God, how did life appear on earth and appear so suddenly?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/science/22origins.html

    If life evolved through gradual random variations and natural selection, not divine creation, then why do the fossils indicate sudden dramatic changes?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/28/science/28mari.html

    If we are soulless zombies, then why do we perceive ourselves to have free will?

    Atheists have come up with various explanations, however I think on the whole they're doing much worse than Judaism.

    ReplyDelete
  4. jewish philosopherNovember 29, 2011 at 5:59 PM

    Here's one more: 

    If life developed through beneficial de novo genetic mutations and natural selection, how could flatworms develop into humans in only 500 million years, while only one organism in countless trillions is born with a beneficial de novo genetic mutation?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

    ReplyDelete
  5. Undercover KoferNovember 29, 2011 at 8:13 PM

    JP: You are once again disregarding the topic completely. Did you read my post at all?!

    My post only addressed those people that claim that religion and science are operating in different spheres. Now if you believe religion can be subject to science, I am not talking about you.

    Next time read, think and only then start pasting links to your own blog.

    ReplyDelete
  6. jewish philosopherNovember 29, 2011 at 8:44 PM

    I'm just suggesting that atheists be subject to the same standards of evidence that Jews routinely are.

    Can atheism be reconciled with science? I think not.

    ReplyDelete
  7. SkepticalYidNovember 29, 2011 at 10:50 PM

    UK: He's just trolling. Note that his latest tactic is to post very long lists of links to his ludicrous site as well as multiple posts in strings. It's not just your site where he does this, by the way. He rarely proves or disproves anything. It's generally poorly constructed argument based on flawed premises.

    ReplyDelete
  8. jewish philosopherNovember 29, 2011 at 11:02 PM

    Seriously, I'm waiting with bated breath for the rebuttal. If anyone's got one.

    ReplyDelete
  9. AnonymousNovember 30, 2011 at 3:34 AM

    JP, take it from an old deprogammer, you've been brainwashed. No amount of reason will mean anything to you.

    ReplyDelete
  10. eNovember 30, 2011 at 6:46 AM

    UK: The people who claim that science and religion don't overlap are not the same people who claim that the Torah tells us historical facts.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Undercover KoferNovember 30, 2011 at 10:13 AM

    JP: I am happy to debate with you sticking to the topics I am posting about. I will consider the rest to be just spam.

    e: I so wish that was true! But I think there are plenty of people who believe that the world is 6000 years old and we can't subject the Torah to science.

    ReplyDelete
  12. jewish philosopherNovember 30, 2011 at 10:23 AM

    "Brainwashing" is actually pseudoscientific nonsense.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APA_taskforce_on_Deceptive_and_Indirect_Techniques_of_Persuasion_and_Control#The_APA_memorandum:_dismissal_of_the_DIMPAC_report

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Anthony#Involvement_in_the_brainwashing_debate

    Atheists however are addicts in denial, which unfortunately is a very real problem.

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/07/jewish-skeptics-and-sex.html

    http://www.netplaces.com/addiction-recovery/identifying-addiction/denial.htm

    ReplyDelete
  13. eNovember 30, 2011 at 4:55 PM

    wow. people can be really stupid.

    ReplyDelete
  14. jewish philosopherNovember 30, 2011 at 5:37 PM

    Well, atheists certainly prove that. lol.

    ReplyDelete
  15. eNovember 30, 2011 at 7:26 PM

    JP, I've seen on various blogs that you show great disdain for people who hide their true identities when engaging in online discussions. So I imagine you won't mind answering my questions.

    How old are you? How many children do you have?

    To reciprocate the favor, I'll tell you that I'm turning 26 next Tuesday and I have no children.

    ReplyDelete
  16. jewish philosopherNovember 30, 2011 at 7:42 PM

    I have a profile which links to my bio. Very inspiring, really.

    ReplyDelete
  17. eNovember 30, 2011 at 7:48 PM

    A fifty year old man and a father of little kids has nothing better to do with his time than troll otd blogs?

    ReplyDelete
  18. AnonymousNovember 30, 2011 at 7:55 PM

    i am SURE that he hangs out in porn blogs and websites too - never seen anyone so obssessed with porn and sex in my life. well, most orthodox rabbis, but aside from them....

    ksil

    ReplyDelete
  19. jewish philosopherNovember 30, 2011 at 8:45 PM

    "nothing better to do with his time than troll otd blogs?"

    Nope.

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/07/counter-atheism-activity.html

    And 51 isn't old; 50 is the new 30.

    "i am SURE that he hangs out in porn blogs and websites too"

    If you're trying to hit on me, don't waste your time.

    ReplyDelete
  20. R.W.December 1, 2011 at 2:37 AM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  21. eDecember 1, 2011 at 2:59 AM

    Do you have any success stories? Have any atheists contacted you (off blogger) to further discuss religion? Have any atheists conceded that your arguments are valid? (I am not asking whether you posted valid arguments. I'm certain that you have. I'm wondering if any atheists accepted them.)

    I know you've been involved with blogs for several years, and I wonder what kind of success you've had until now.

    ReplyDelete
  22. jewish philosopherDecember 1, 2011 at 10:15 AM

    I consider atheists to be a lost cause; they are too deeply in denial to ever recover. I am more concerned about helping those who are not yet past the point of no return.

    Success even with in patient, face to face addiction treatment is hard to measure and is probably fairly low.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/health/23reha.html

    My philosophy is: It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness, as I explain here.

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/01/after-five-years-why-do-i-blog.html

    ReplyDelete
  23. jewish philosopherDecember 1, 2011 at 10:19 AM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  24. AnonymousDecember 2, 2011 at 5:01 AM

    http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

    "Our latest survey finds that, among the top natural scientists, disbelief is greater than ever — almost total."

    ReplyDelete
  25. jewish philosopherDecember 2, 2011 at 9:12 AM

    Probably a record number of scientists are amoral scumbags.

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/11/science-and-pseudo-science.html

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/10/our-amazing-scientists.html

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/12/what-scientists-are-really-doing.html

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2010/02/portrait-of-professor.html

    http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2007/09/portrait-of-scientist.html

    ReplyDelete
  26. AnonymousDecember 5, 2011 at 5:26 AM

    UK,
    Why debate someone so obsessed with primeval fundamentalist drivel that he's reduced to justifying his contentions by quoting himself ?
    The guy has been fired, subsequently expelled from vocational school, shunned in his community as a psycho-neurotic crank and is living on charity and food stamps.
    In the interest of civility, why not just ban the idiot ?

    ReplyDelete
  27. jewish philosopherDecember 5, 2011 at 9:58 AM

    But can you rationally answer any of my arguments? So better just to "ban" them.

    ReplyDelete
  28. AnonymousDecember 6, 2011 at 2:55 AM

    Your arguments have been rationaly debunked dozens of times. But your corrupted torah mind is simply incapable of processing and understanding logicaly rigorous impeachments of your twisted cogitation. So go knock yourself out -- keep on quoting yourself. I suppose its a bit healthier than formulating the final solution for homosexuals.

    ReplyDelete
  29. jewish philosopherDecember 6, 2011 at 3:59 AM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Undercover KoferDecember 13, 2011 at 11:35 PM

    JP: Do I really have to babysit you in here?

    ReplyDelete
  31. jewish philosopherDecember 13, 2011 at 11:48 PM

    This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  32. jewish philosopherDecember 13, 2011 at 11:49 PM

    You have to allow the geyser of my boundless wisdom to flow freely. Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  33. AnonymousDecember 14, 2011 at 6:22 PM

    You need help. Really, I say this only with compassion, not vindictiveness. Please get yourself a therapist if you don't already have one. For your own sake, if not your family.

    ReplyDelete
  34. jewish philosopherDecember 14, 2011 at 7:03 PM

    Not as long as we are plagued by undercover kofrim.

    ReplyDelete

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