tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post8309440023827865356..comments2023-10-03T10:52:05.047+02:00Comments on Undercover Kofer: Kosher Sex - The Gedolim Way!Undercover Koferhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00194328471722983693noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-8333320536346182302010-12-03T08:27:22.470+01:002010-12-03T08:27:22.470+01:00I've done some work towards that end in my com...I've done some work towards that end in my comments on pages 2-5 following Prof. Marc Shapiro's blog on Rav Kook, at http://seforim.blogspot.com/2010/10/marc-b-shapiro-new-writings-from-r-kook.htmlMendynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-77674405345218791362009-12-03T23:08:14.265+01:002009-12-03T23:08:14.265+01:00Menashe: could I convince you to post an article r...Menashe: could I convince you to post an article refuting the Torah miSinai position on http://sites.google.com/site/otdresources/?Undercover Koferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00194328471722983693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-911546726954511492009-12-02T23:02:40.443+01:002009-12-02T23:02:40.443+01:00Odd, but okOdd, but okOTDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284266882043971891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-25708352564442640982009-12-02T23:02:08.760+01:002009-12-02T23:02:08.760+01:00Menashe: Your link didn't work.Menashe: Your link didn't work.OTDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284266882043971891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-67014068278048684812009-11-30T15:59:16.277+01:002009-11-30T15:59:16.277+01:00OTD: Odd request, but ok. http://chaptzem.blogspot...OTD: Odd request, but ok. http://chaptzem.blogspot.com/2009/04/malkie-schwartz-to-leave-footsteps.html?showComment=1241797380000#c1450816599572002623Menashenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-13538444309108182742009-11-30T07:55:28.290+01:002009-11-30T07:55:28.290+01:00Menashe: Give me one reason to believe you.Menashe: Give me one reason to believe you.OTDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284266882043971891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-47778060852879971442009-11-27T18:15:11.603+01:002009-11-27T18:15:11.603+01:00Off the Derech:
"Something" tells me yo...Off the Derech: <br />"Something" tells me <i>you</i> are not really an OTDer. Whatever. If you want to make empty statements like that please take the time to detail how a particular view of mine is inconsistent with what I claim to be.<br /><br />For the record, I consider myself an OTDer who's gotten past the bitterness and cynicism and am a bit more level-headed in my attitude toward OJ.<br /><br />I also feel that if you're going to attack the Gemara, it should be done on a scholarly level. While the approach in this post I agree is useful for letting off steam, when directed at OJs it just reinforces the OJ notion of OTDers as cynics who never took the time to learn Gemara right.Menashenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-38181673417823637922009-11-27T16:29:18.791+01:002009-11-27T16:29:18.791+01:00Guys, the next line of Gemorah says this is not al...Guys, the next line of Gemorah says this is not allowed anyway. So nowadays no one, not even gedolim, would be allowed to do this, just read further in the Gemara. The way I read that line is that the Rabbi comes and says who am I supposed to marry today. Remember, his messenger arranged for him to get married that day. So the Rabbi comes to town and says who is the lucky girl that I get to marry today. <br /><br />Also, the way all societies worked back then was one man could have several wives. It was not until tekanos Rabbeinu Gershom that it was limited to one man with one woman. The reason for this was most probably because gentile society had changed, in europe, where one man was with one woman only.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-80952032583167618732009-11-27T08:58:47.795+01:002009-11-27T08:58:47.795+01:00Happy: I didn't see it this way, but that coul...Happy: I didn't see it this way, but that could very well be the pshat. Which is good news for R' Pinchas, I would assume ;) Still, only big Rabbis can get themselves a temporary massage chick in Thailand without having to feel guilty. Or, perhaps, now that we are one global village, everyone can as well...Undercover Koferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00194328471722983693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-88261816451446978112009-11-27T08:10:56.127+01:002009-11-27T08:10:56.127+01:00UK,
Not to nitpick but youre reading the gemara sl...UK,<br />Not to nitpick but youre reading the gemara slightly wrong. The gemara's difficulty was that if Rav and R' Nachman marry women in other countries, their daughters and sons may end up marrying each other. To this the gemara answers that being as Rav and R' Nachman are famous, their daughters and sons will be well known and will recognize each other, thus avoiding the problem. The whole marriage-for-a-day thing was apparently a standard custom that any man could engage in and seems to be taken by the gemara for granted!<br />And if you want weird, sex-related gemaras, try this one for size (pun intended):<br />http://www.yutorah.org/daf.cfm/6024/Bava%20Metzia/84/aHappynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-61934098581800140602009-11-27T07:42:14.419+01:002009-11-27T07:42:14.419+01:00E-Man: Could you kindly explain to me how you lear...E-Man: Could you kindly explain to me how you learn pshat in "מאן הויא ליומא?". To you this seems to mean: Where is my bashert that wants to share the rest of my life with me learning Mesilas Yeshorim?<br /><br />BTW: I AM bothered by one man having more women because I think it is a male supremacist philosophy.Undercover Koferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00194328471722983693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-5778579473992478982009-11-26T23:25:25.968+01:002009-11-26T23:25:25.968+01:00Something tells me "Menashe" is not real...Something tells me "Menashe" is not really an OTDer...<br /><br />There's no end to frum trolls, is there?OTDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284266882043971891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-71684888218420876652009-11-26T22:54:44.404+01:002009-11-26T22:54:44.404+01:00I remain unbothered by the fact that they married ...I remain unbothered by the fact that they married more than one woman since, at that time, it was normal for any man to have several wives.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-78991481721401477552009-11-26T22:53:12.882+01:002009-11-26T22:53:12.882+01:00The only problem I have with this Gemorah is that ...The only problem I have with this Gemorah is that it seems to be saying that Rav Nachman and Rav used to marry women with the intent to divorce them afterwards. This is why the Gemorah later on, which you do not mention here, says that it is assur to marry a woman with intent to divorce her. <br /><br />The answer that I think is appropriate is that they married the woman and did not divorce her. Feel free to disagree, but that is how I understand the Gemorah. The reason I feel this way is because the Gemorah never mentions that they divorced the woman, but just that they made sure they were married to them before they got there. Otherwise, the Gemorah should have mentioned that they would marry them and then divorce them.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-46655604577964285072009-11-26T22:20:19.170+01:002009-11-26T22:20:19.170+01:00Rosh Yeshivah: Such an honor to have you comment h...Rosh Yeshivah: Such an honor to have you comment here! Can I have your signature on Shabbos after you delivered your weekly droshah?<br /><br />Menashe: You free to agree with Abbi (carefully note that I did not say I agreed with him). I don't have to defend the cartoon, that was not the point. I don't think this halacha was made up to let the Rabbis have something on the side, that's just my cynical side.<br /><br />The truth is that the Gemora is just plain outdated. Since I am still OJ to most people, a suffocating experience, a blog like this is great to let steam off and say what you really feel / believe.<br /><br />I have no pretenses that I am a great scholar. But I am not stupid either.Undercover Koferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00194328471722983693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-4693318105618248782009-11-26T17:56:25.571+01:002009-11-26T17:56:25.571+01:00I have been trying to make this argument with my b...I have been trying to make this argument with my bashert for years. Thanks for pointing out this Gemarrah!Rabbi Pinky Schmeckelsteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16415028859483212296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-63174535139419828262009-11-26T17:30:21.788+01:002009-11-26T17:30:21.788+01:00I'm going to agree with Abbi here. Regardless ...I'm going to agree with Abbi here. Regardless of your position on the binding authority of the Gemara or lack thereof, an intellectually honest study of it demands taking the time to properly understand it in the context of its time and place. The Daat Emet cartoon with the rabbis in the whorehouse is just plain infantile, and CLEARLY not the intent of the Gemara.<br /><br />There are plenty of laws in the Code of Hammurabi and other ancient legal codes that would appear silly in today's day and age, but the scholarly approach always endeavors to understand how such laws made sense (and were perhaps necessary) at the time. True, for us disenchanted OTDers there's always the temptation to disparage and cast the Gemara in the most negative light possible, but I seriously doubt that an outside educated observer would analyze this passage reach the same conclusion you inferred (i.e., that the Rabbis instituted this law so that they could get some on the side).Menashenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-55155553264782609552009-11-26T15:19:09.396+01:002009-11-26T15:19:09.396+01:00Abbi: Tons of silly things in pshat: I couldn'...Abbi: Tons of silly things in pshat: I couldn't agree more. Now the question is who has the real 'peirush' if not Rashi and the like? What do you learn from this?<br /><br />And what's wrong about making fun of silly statements? It's about time people take the gemora for what it really is and stop their daas torah blah blah, thinking it is something holy and perfect.<br /><br />I am planning to post more such posts. You are welcome to read it, but if you are offended, I can recommend some sites that ask less questions and will soothe your conscience.Undercover Koferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00194328471722983693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-31783581699497368192009-11-26T14:50:57.039+01:002009-11-26T14:50:57.039+01:00>than that's your write
You must mean rite,...>than that's your write<br />You must mean rite, but chazal OBM thought it was the right rite for even people without issues of belief.Penhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17895596986880085446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-49249399676602920742009-11-26T14:37:53.590+01:002009-11-26T14:37:53.590+01:00seems like a cheap shot. No one paskens by the psh...seems like a cheap shot. No one paskens by the pshat today anyway. And there are tons of "silly" things written in pshat. I'm not clear on what your point is.<br /><br />If you have issues of belief, than that's your write. But pointing and making fun seems undignified.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-31258284939544628242009-11-26T09:27:29.413+01:002009-11-26T09:27:29.413+01:00E-Man: checking the Rishonim and Acharonim now? ;)...E-Man: checking the Rishonim and Acharonim now? ;)Undercover Koferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00194328471722983693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-25076170256439993872009-11-26T07:35:31.894+01:002009-11-26T07:35:31.894+01:00Thanks MordyThanks MordyLav Dafkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445334465701679732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-60124791761778748382009-11-26T07:16:59.808+01:002009-11-26T07:16:59.808+01:00Spot on, Chasid Kofer. Great dissection.Spot on, Chasid Kofer. Great dissection.Mordyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11360815630903150900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-83069403751182380872009-11-26T06:52:57.598+01:002009-11-26T06:52:57.598+01:00There is one lesson I could learn from this Gomorr...There is one lesson I could learn from this Gomorrah. When the wife is not around, don't twiddle your thumbs. Get Busy, and find a replacement quickly!<br /><br />You know what, If we all agree that this lesson is not for us, Why care about any of the other lessons of the Talmud?Lav Dafkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445334465701679732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-68750999791171534512009-11-26T06:49:06.501+01:002009-11-26T06:49:06.501+01:00It's amazing! How sometimes the best litzunis ...It's amazing! How sometimes the best litzunis (make fun of) of the Gomorrah, is by just reading Pushit pshat (simple meaning)! This Gomorrah is a laughable piece of comedy from beginning to end.<br /><br />One thing is clear from this Gomorrah, is that if you use birth control, you are permitted to marry for a day. It should not be less failsafe then being famous (since the only issue, was that offspring may commit incest).<br /><br />what i find particularly laughable is the 2 terutzim (excuses) the Gomorrah came up with, in order to respond to the question according to Rava.<br /><br />#1. According to the first excuse, they just changed the facts of the story, just to to squirm out from under a question. There is no reference in the original story to messengers sent out beforehand. Wouldn't this have been an important enough anecdote to include to begin with (from the halachic and the story telling standpoint).<br />The Gomorrah has no need to cite any sources, that messengers were indeed used. To them it's just simple if i have a problem with the story, why not just change it?<br />(btw it's this silliness that won't allow me to enjoy a piece of Gomorrah, even to just exercise my brain, this isn't logic this is stupidity)<br /><br />#2 excuse, also falls into the change the story after the fact silliness, but even worse, it never answers the question. If the girls did not wait 7 day's, then why are they considered bread in the basket? Sex with them would be forbidden according to Rava. So think about the logic here. In order for the Rabbanim to overcome their (animalistic) sexual desires, they made sure to have an eager available Girl in their bedroom, that was actually prohibited for them!!! (We should promote this method, when teaching sexual abstinence to teenagers!)<br /><br />Oh man this stuff is just genius!!!<br />I can go on all night critiquing this piece of nonsense, but y waist more effort on such Silliness!!Lav Dafkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445334465701679732noreply@blogger.com