tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post5341758092235930642..comments2023-10-03T10:52:05.047+02:00Comments on Undercover Kofer: The Holy Sages' Opinion on Breasts of Twelve Year Old GirlsUndercover Koferhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00194328471722983693noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-672983104878802462010-05-22T02:44:50.567+02:002010-05-22T02:44:50.567+02:00I'm not sure if I should bother responding to ...I'm not sure if I should bother responding to JP, but I guess I will:<br /><br />The real distinction Jacob is that atheists aren't claiming that atheism makes people morally superior or provides some great moral guidance. The claim is being made that the Taanaim and Amoraim were great moral beacons. So their failings do matter.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00637936588223855248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-40404388369287106092010-05-21T01:31:23.678+02:002010-05-21T01:31:23.678+02:00Since when does kofer mean atheist? A cover can be...Since when does kofer mean atheist? A cover can be someone who denies techiyas hameisim (Rambam, Hilchos Teshuvah Chapter 3):<br /><br />יד [ו] ואלו שאין להן חלק לעולם הבא, אלא נכרתין ואובדין, ונידונין על גודל רשעם וחטאתם, לעולם ולעולמי עולמים: המינים, והאפיקורוסים, והכופרים בתורה, והכופרים בתחיית המתים, והכופרים בביאת הגואל, והמשומדים, ומחטיאי הרבים, והפורשים מדרכי ציבור, והעושה עבירות ביד רמה בפרהסיה כיהויקים, והמוסרים, ומטילי אימה על הציבור שלא לשם שמיים, ושופכי דמים, ובעלי לשון הרע, והמושך עורלתו.<br /><br /> Not the first times you did not get your facts right. In any case, feel free to stop playing the atheism thing on me.Undercover Koferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00194328471722983693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-54958469796770109352010-05-18T22:12:40.254+02:002010-05-18T22:12:40.254+02:00It's the "kofer" part. Means atheist...It's the "kofer" part. Means atheist.<br /><br />So what's bothering you? According to atheism a person is no more sacred than a bag of garbage.jewish philosopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17987540457195983665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-91193252242156754472010-05-18T15:46:36.366+02:002010-05-18T15:46:36.366+02:00JP: We are talking about sexual exploitation here,...JP: We are talking about sexual exploitation here, not just 'ownership of a few domestic servants'. It is much worse than owning slave (which in and of itself morally reprehensible). <br /><br />Problem is that you base your morality on the Torah, which has shown in many places to be outdated, if not offensive.<br /><br />Besides: On what basis do you conclude that I am an atheist?Undercover Koferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00194328471722983693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-28269705567043125712010-05-18T14:39:43.985+02:002010-05-18T14:39:43.985+02:00I seem to recall that the atheist Stalin had no pr...I seem to recall that the atheist Stalin had no problem with huge slave labor camps, so I find atheists critiquing ancient rabbinical ownership of a few domestic servants to be highly hypocritical.<br /><br />Remember: from an atheistic point of view, man is merely a minute, soulless bag of chemicals stuck to a speck of cosmic dust. In a few years, he will disintigrate and be forgotten. He has no more or less importance than a soap bubble.jewish philosopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17987540457195983665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-47203213617761612692010-05-16T14:41:13.969+02:002010-05-16T14:41:13.969+02:00"- Comparing contemporary life to the amoraim..."<i>- Comparing contemporary life to the amoraim: Of course we can't, but OJ believes in the decline of the generations and in this case this really holds no water."</i><br /><br />sure you can't on the one hand, i agree that comparing modern day life to the times of yesteryear is not fair.<br /><br />However, don't OJ claim that the torah is the source of all morality and that without it we would be lost?<br /><br />if these morals are universal and timeless, then why can't we compare different eras?Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12909933722622649565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-59393597655502112572010-05-14T17:59:00.655+02:002010-05-14T17:59:00.655+02:00> OJ believes in the decline of the generations...> OJ believes in the decline of the generations and in this case this really holds no water.<br /><br />Hiskatnu hadoros is more about holiness (whatever that is) and understanding of the Torah than it is about morality, but even granting that it applies to morality, what standards are you using? It doesn’t seem fair to assume that a modern sense of morality is superior and then disparage the amoraim for not measuring up. While I agree that adults shouldn’t be fondling children, some of the taboos of Western society surrounding sex and nudity are just silly<br /><br />> Research: Merely checking one girl sounds hardly like 'research' and shows what judgements can sometimes be based on.<br /><br />Remember that we’re talking about the same group of people who thought that Jews and Gentiles had a different number of teeth, and never bothered to check. It’s certainly not scientific, but at least he made an effort.<br /><br />> Pedophilia: Got a point there, but everyone nowadays would consider fondling 12 year olds morally despicable. <br /><br />Even a doctor? Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it wasn’t sexual.<br /><br />> the exact points you brought up may cause people to feel safer to perform immoral acts, especially if condoned by chazal.<br /><br />Social factors probably do make abusers feel safer, but I doubt that the typical frum person learns this gemara and thinks to themselves, “oh good, I can molest little girls.” It would be great if the gemara specifically forbade sexual abuse, but I don’t think we can hold it against the amoraim that they didn’t. No one else at their time did.<br /><br />Ignore JP. He’s sex-obsessed. Of course he’s defend sexual slavery and exploitation.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-51000017297897333792010-05-14T12:28:57.079+02:002010-05-14T12:28:57.079+02:00Well, here is our kiruv clown again!
...and the t...Well, here is our kiruv clown again!<br /><br />...and the tactics of a kiruv clown include:<br /><br />- Deflecting criticism by pointing out sins of someone else's past.<br />- Rationalization of immoral laws.<br /><br />Seriously: I can't believe you can even THINK about defending slavery and sexual exploitation of minors.<br /><br />(Shaking his head in disbelief)<br /><br />Are the Amoraim not supposedly the holy giants of the past who are closer to Torah than we are and "sheal pihem anu chayim"?Undercover Koferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00194328471722983693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-63203140522020645382010-05-14T11:51:49.231+02:002010-05-14T11:51:49.231+02:00About the sex thing, first of all the Torah permit...About the sex thing, first of all the Torah permits slavery, which I argue is not necessarily a bad thing.<br /><br />http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/04/slavery-is-it-evil.html<br /><br />Rav Nachman and Rav Sheshet ruled that it is permitted to embarrass a slave. Therefore they felt that it was permissible to command their female slaves to have sex with numerous different slaves or gentiles, rather than assigning them one committed partner, in spite of the embarrassment involved.<br /><br />Maimonides rules that the law in practice does not follow their opinion. (Laws of Slaves 9:8)<br /><br />לא יבזהו, לא ביד ולא בדברים<br /><br />http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/c509.htm<br /><br />It's incidentally amusing to hear all this indignation from a man who himself admits to having visited prostitutes.jewish philosopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17987540457195983665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-393895156847821532010-05-14T09:24:42.850+02:002010-05-14T09:24:42.850+02:00G3:
- Comparing contemporary life to the amoraim...G3: <br /><br />- Comparing contemporary life to the amoraim: Of course we can't, but OJ believes in the decline of the generations and in this case this really holds no water.<br />- Research: Merely checking one girl sounds hardly like 'research' and shows what judgements can sometimes be based on.<br />- Pedophilia: Got a point there, but everyone nowadays would consider fondling 12 year olds morally despicable.<br />- More pervasive in hardei society? I agree, there are no statistics. But the exact points you brought up may cause people to feel safer to perform immoral acts, especially if condoned by chazal.<br /><br />Sara: I agree the title of my posting is a little 'overdone', but not really misleading.<br /><br />Thanks to you all for your great comments, I really appreciate them!Undercover Koferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00194328471722983693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-6698099276531412072010-05-14T02:32:24.848+02:002010-05-14T02:32:24.848+02:00Good answer by G*3...Good answer by G*3...Off Derechhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16806965779034488898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-74462846050290465472010-05-14T02:06:55.034+02:002010-05-14T02:06:55.034+02:00I'm also disturbed at the title of the post, a...I'm also disturbed at the title of the post, as it focuses on the breasts and not the sexual exploitation which is far more serious. I find the title pornographic, ie the exploitation of sexual imagery to draw the viewers attention.saramaimonhttp://www.maimonfamily.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-78408211721565201312010-05-14T02:02:57.217+02:002010-05-14T02:02:57.217+02:00I do not find the discussion pornographic, but ver...I do not find the discussion pornographic, but very down to earth. I find the behavior much more disturbing. <br /><br />Additionally, the sages blatantly violated the written Torah where it says one may not prostitute one's maidsersvant or captive. See parashat mishpatim and Ki Tetze. If the master does not legally marry them then they are to go free.<br /><br />(Not that I'm always such a fan of the written Torah, but you'd think they could at least adhere to that.)saramaimonhttp://www.maimonfamily.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-14112820879845588052010-05-14T01:40:11.584+02:002010-05-14T01:40:11.584+02:00> Two observations from someone living in the 2...> Two observations from someone living in the 21st century:<br /><br />You are living in the 21st century, and you can’t judge the Amoraim by modern standards. The attitude that sex represents all that is unholy is relatively modern, as is the concept of childhood as a separate stage of life and the idea that children below a certain (usually arbitrary) age shouldn’t have sex or even be thought of sexually.<br /><br />> What business did Shmuel have to examine a 12 year old's breasts<br /><br />It was research. I find it more surprising that he actually bothered to check his ideas against reality than that he examined her breasts. I suppose today if there were a legal question to which 12-year-olds’ breasts were relevant, the legislature would consult with a medical expert – who ultimately would be getting his knowledge from someone who had examined a twelve year old’s breasts. Would it be better if you picture Shmuel wearing a lab coat and latex gloves and the girl lying on an exam table?<br /><br />> and what do the sages spend time discussing little girls' breasts in such detail?<br /><br />They were discussing indicators of physical maturity in a legal context. Not every mention of breasts is pornographic.<br /><br />> My conclusion: Pedophilia and underaged sexual exploitation is not only condoned in halachah.<br /><br />Pedophilia is sexual attraction to prepubescent children. Attraction to pubescent children, as the girls described in the gemara clearly are, is not a disorder, is not unusual, and is considered deviant in modern Western society only because of an arbitrary legal age of consent enforced by most governments. Age-of-consent laws exist because we recognize childhood as a separate stage of life and are aware that children don’t have the same decision making capabilities as adults. In the US, age of consent varies by state and is anywhere from 14 to 18 years old. Research has shown that the brain finishes developing in a person’s early 20s, which means all of the legal ages of consent are arbitrary. Thus the amoraim were not engaging in pedophilia and “underaged” is a meaningless charge.<br /><br />The slavery and sexual exploitation are serious issues.<br /><br />> why is everyone so surprised when frum people are into sex with minors?! <br /><br />You really think one has anything to do with the other? There are pedophiles and criminals in every society. I doubt the incidence of sex with minors is higher in the frum community than in any other segment of society. The real issue is the insularity of much of frum society and the reluctance to allow criminals to be brought before a secular court.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754002607205877740.post-15230767650488804952010-05-14T00:27:43.251+02:002010-05-14T00:27:43.251+02:00wow. i'm absolutely floored.wow. i'm absolutely floored.bechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146699715760197131noreply@blogger.com